".......and unfortunately nearly all make money online blogs are crap, so he, Dave, decided to write his own. It's pretty spankin."
Dalai Lama
Oct 082010

After just writing 10 posts in a row with no stopping in 45 minutes, about xxxxxx with my new favorite toy

Build My Rank

I thought I would stop by to say hi and have a bit of a chat.

What I really want to say, and what I probably do quite a lot, is that the above is just a small small section of what it really takes to rank. I don’t have lots of sites, I don’t have blog farms or super duper link wheels, but I do backlink, a lot, until I feel rather sick. BLUURRGHHHHHHHHHH. (SCUSE)

I know that a lot of people struggle with the backlinking, they can’t face it, they can’t face the spinning (urgh) and the looking for backlink sources. I hate spinning too, and although I own MAR I have had some great fun outsourcing that part of the equation lately. I will still do short 150 worders but when you can get 3 articles of 400 words spun for five dollars, just over 3,5 euros for me, then that is what I am going to do from now on.

Before we go any further with this and what it really takes to make serious money, here is a post that I wrote just over two weeks ago:

A couple of days ago I hit number 2 for a competitive term. I only wrote my article a few weeks previously on an aged sites and this is what it took.

  • A pig packet of links from Backlinks Philippines
  • I paid someone on Fiverr a um Fiver to write, spin and submit an article to hundreds of article directories.
  • I wrote a shed load of 150 word articles on my new favorite backlinking system site Build My Rank (more on that soon), move over Postrunner there is a new boy in town
  • I submitted 50 spins to Backlink Solutions
  • I am still backlinking it now


ooh baby, I be rich innit?

Ranking near the top or the top of very competitive or highly searched terms is a big pot of gold.

But try doing it without spending any money and it is tough.


Yes, and I wish it was not this way. But it has become so much more competitive in just the last year that since I decided to begin playing tough the rewards have been piling up so think about your approach and get them links from anywhere you can. With Christmas coming I would say invest now in a couple of things and blast you way to the top.

If this all crashes and burns tomorrow we now have more than enough money to live on for 4 years (EDIT: just went legit and sorted out tax, goodbye money hello poordom) if we had to start again. And for what? Hard work and the price of a few weekends out a month.

BS $98

Postrunner free for the first month then under $40

Build My Rank $59

Backlinks Philippines from $18 a run

Not even half a days wages for us now on many days. But it allows you to step up your game so much it is not even funny.

We are now a few weeks on from when I wrote that and I am now number 1 for the main term and 1 and 2 for a slightly more longtail. And weirdly also on page 2 for the same site. I have been plugging away, as you saw at the beginning of this post, and the rewards are great so far.

I expect it to change a lot as we near the real buying time. Last year I was getting 8000 visitors a day for a single competitive term and I did it all manually. Article directories, Infobarrels and the like and it worked. But I never beat position number 4. So I am not saying that it can’t be done all manually just with single article submissions to sites, but this year I want to not spend all day for months writing about 1 single topic. Yes, I felt very unwell by the end of it. I still have dreams now. This year I am going to get to number 1 for all the main terms for my niche or I am going to explode my head trying.

I keep seeing people talking about doing 3 articles for each piece of content they publish, an Ezine, an Infobarrel and a Hub etc. But after having been there and seriously done that for a year at least I really do want to help you out by telling you to look at different sources.

Use tools, they honestly work, or get creative. Have you subscribed to some of the large news sites that have many feeds for topics? There are some good ones that let you put dofollow anchor text in comments. Have you just sat down for a few hours and written non stop in a brain draining fury about 1 keyword and no variations for anchor text and then submitted them all to Postrunner or BMR? No? You should try it. The results are rather fuzzy feeling.

I know, from direct experience, that it is hard to get motivated to get real results. And the harder the term the tougher it is, but the rewards are lubbly jubbly. Yes, with a high number of links you risk a major Google dance for the search results, maybe even for weeks or a month, but if you carry on regardless and keep linking you will wake up one morning with a tidy sum in your Adsense or Amazon account and see that you have rankings to make your Grannie really proud of you.

But either way, plod on you must. Every day is an opportunity to get 1 position higher, 1 more sale, 1 more blue click love, but it can take time and you must believe that it works. Basically everyone reading this knows about as much as I do about the basics. No secrets here. Just rank for a keyword that people who want to buy type in and you make sales. Or rank for high paying adsense keywords if you must.

Then spend most of your time improving where they are in the serps.

What I really hope is that you just go bonkers for the next few months. You will then really see what Christmas traffic is all about. It gets crazy. I am glad I have my first real Christmas time behind me in this game, as it takes a lot of trust to know the traffic will come in droves in a month or two. It is starting already so get in there and be a success. What, you don’t like writing about the same boring item over and over?

Fine, more for me then.

Who said this was fun? It is just a job where you finally get to set your own hours. And watch the Wife get really annoyed about a fly, even though she won’t get up and get the fly swat. And as it is Friday I think I will finish early as there is some rather lovely Cava in the fridge with my name written all over it.

And for the search engines when they do finally begin to love poor old Dave’s site:

“How many backlinks do I need to rank?”

Who the hell knows? Are you number 1? No? Then you need more don’t you?

Never count how many backlinks you have made, just do them until you are the one to fear, not your competitors.

  223 Responses to “What It Takes To Rank”

  1. Another great article Dave,

    I have been using Postrunner for months and just joined BMR (through your site of course of course).

    Since PR and BMR don’t accept spun articles, where do you send the spun ones? You mentioned news sites with do follow in the comments. That news to me (sorry, wanted to work a bad pun in). Where do I find these news sites? Can you explain further?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    You can do a few simple searches such as ” Disqus recent comments” and your keyword for some rather amazing finds. For news, Independent.co.uk and tons of others. Take a look at big tech stories etc and see which news sites and papers rank and there are some real goldmines if you dig a little.

    You will also be surprised at the amount of click through traffic you can get just from a comment on very large sites, let alone the link as well.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lando @ Docking Bay94 Reply:


    Nice tip there Dave. I did a few comments this morning. Got one on a PR5 page! The homepage is PR2 so that seems kind of odd. But I’ll take it.

    Check out my new Gravatar. Fiverr well spent!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lando @ Docking Bay94 Reply:

    @Lando @ Docking Bay94,

    That bombed! Better luck this time. Anime Lando.

  2. “I submitted 50 spins to Backlink Solutions”

    Are you noticing a better indexing rate only doing 50 as opposed to 100? I have been doing 100 submissions per spin just because I hate spinning so at this rate I only have to do it half as often.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Lando @ Docking Bay94,

    To be honest I don’t check. I just know that in Yahoo site explorer a ton of them show up. But you know I am never too scientific Lando, I just do the links and move on for stuff like this.

    I do Onlywire my Postrunners though and they then seem to get indexed.

  3. Duh, guess that answers my spin question :). See what happens when I read here at work?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Don’t forget you can use GOOD spun content on Hubs, Ezinearticles, Infobarrel and all the usual article sites. If you do take the time to do a proper spin it reads as good as original content.

    Worth bearing in mind when you spin, depending on where it will be posted makes a difference to the time invested in the spinning.

  4. Dave i am planning for some quick amazon sales before new year..Will hubs give decent results in two months?

    Really back links show effects. My most of adsense earning is coming from hubs only. So, i am trying to develop big tech blog. Got good results. From next week onwards, we will be trying to rank no.1 for all keywords targeted. Right now just throwing content.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @All Is Well,

    Sure, you can rank Hubs quickly. Some disagree but we do it. Just backlink without pushing it in case you get a ban. I would not now use any automation or forum profile links though.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Johric Reply:

    Guys wearing big black hats have found a solution how to make crapload of backlinks to hubs without getting banned.

    1. Go to URL shortener, e.g. bit.ly and make a shortened version of your hub URL.
    If your original hub URL is hxxp://hubpages.com/hub/white-socks-for-sale, shortened URL will be hxxp://bit.ly/ag5Bou
    2. Build backlinks to hxxp://bit.ly/ag5Bou
    3. Bit.ly will pass 90-95% of link juice to your hub, and these backlinks will not be reported.

    Got this tip in Backlinks Forum with reference to Xrumer/Drip Feed Blast society.

    While investigating this, found guy on Fiverr who offers 25 pcs of Drip Feed Blast for 30 days, thats 750 backlinks total. For $5. Crazy!


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    This is what I love about this site, I learn stuff. That is a really cool tip Dude. I will definitely be testing it out this week to see if it works.

    So, most of the juice will flow but if you looked at the Hubs links they would show a zero? Right? That is a great way to hide your links then.

    Fiverrr rocks, no doubt. Are you going to test the bit.ly stuff out yourself?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Johric Reply:

    Ladies and gentlemen! Actually…we have a case study. I checked my files and found out that I have already used bit.ly to build backlinks. The reason was that the original url of my webpage was too long and did not fit in the website field of most of the profiles πŸ˜€

    So here are the details.

    According to my notes I have built 146 links to that page on my website – using both direct URL hxxp://www.mydomain.com/my-page and shortened URL hxxp://bit.ly/abcdef. I dont have notes on how many of each type of backlinks I have built.

    I checked direct URL and bit.ly URL with SEO Spyglass and Yahoo Site Explorer.
    Here are results.

    Direct URL hxxp://www.mydomain.com/my-page
    64 reported backlinks in Yahoo Site Explorer – including 1 link from bit.ly webpage hxxp://bit.ly/abcdef
    63 reported backlinks in SEO Spyglass – including 1 link from webpage hxxp://bit.ly/abcdef. Spyglass says that this bit.ly page is PR1 page at this moment.

    Bit.ly URL hxxp://bit.ly/abcdef
    60 reported backlinks in SEO Spyglass – yes, SEO Spyglass treats bit.ly pages as regular webpages and shows its backlinks from forum profiles etc
    0 reported backlinks in Yahoo Site Explorer – you can not check backlinks for bit.ly url in YSE as you get redirecred to the targer url.

    So you can not completely hide the backlinks – that one backlink from bit.ly will be reported. Just like from the any other buffer site.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Cool stuff.

    Now, what would be interesting is to know how much link juice flows forward from any linking page, i.e are we just as well to send all the forum profile links etc to our own buffer page or to the bit.ly?

    I am guessing that it is the same. But if you have no other property that you want to rank as well then the bit.ly would be a great way to go.

    EDIT: Thinking about it I guess as it is a 301 redirect we will be getting more bang for our buck so to speak with most of the juice flowing. Especially cool if it means the links can’t be checked as easily as well.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Johric Reply:


    Right, 301 is faster and more efficient.

    If you send links to your own buffer page, it will gain PR and send SOME linkjuice to the target page you want to rank. All this setup will take some time to mature. Added value – you can switch the target page at any moment.

    If you send links to 301 redirect, almost all linkjuice will be redirected to the target page seamlesly. Downside – you can not switch the target page. And if the 301 redirect service provider goes belly up, you lose all your links.

    How about having 301 redirect service where you can edit the links and switch the target pages at any moment? πŸ˜‰ It would be cool to build your own private 301 redirect service. I remember reading about that somewhere. My guess – it should be a $5-$20 task for skilled programmer. Fiverr? πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I think you need to come run the blog πŸ˜‰

    I saw an interesting thing on the backlinks forum about tags for Hubpages and did a little research. I never really used many tags but using site:HubPages.com KEYWORD β€œHot Hubs” brought up some interesting stuff. I just went in to a few hubs, added a ton of tags, like 40, going for the highest pr tag pages first then using all the tags for the top ranking Hubs in the niche.

    Will be interesting to see if getting a ton more internal links will improve things with no other work done.

    Don’t know if it is just me who neglects the tags there or not but getting listed on more relevant Hubs must increase traffic and some internal PR boosts in gonna help, I get the feeling.

    Anyone else a Hubpages tag virgin?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Johric Reply:

    Oops, I forget to edit URLs and my comment got stuck in spamfilter πŸ™‚

    Vote -1 Vote +1scritty Reply:


    The DFB guy from fiverr is making a tidy profit.

    1000 a day is costing him $99 a month. So in effect he buys 2 subscriptions, and fiverr ing out the first subscription pays for it AND the second subscription (so effectively he gets a free full subscription to DFB all to himself)

    End of the day , Xrumer links only sticks 20% of the time, so you need 1000 links a day if you are going to hose a complete WEB2.0 network down with it for a few weeks at a time.
    That’s 10 sites getting 20 real links a day. It’s good – but nothing like the 1000 total you might think you were getting.
    If you can write quick then build my rank is brilliant. And the links seem to stick far longer. (another problem with Xrumer links is that of a further 50% of those 20% that stick to begin with will be gone in 8-12 weeks. leaving you with 10, that over 6 months or so will dwindle away into nothing at all)

    Sad but true.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Kick ass site Dude, very cool indeed.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Johric Reply:


    Cool stuff!
    BMR is on my ‘tools to try’ list, next to Sick (which I am already playing around with) and Scrapebox. BMW costs some money, and I will have to give this writing task to my outsourced worker. I could write these posts myself, but I hate doing it, and English is not my native language πŸ˜‰


    P.S. I am checking out free alternative to BMR – some of vBulletin forums have blogs and Custom Blog Pages. You can post your articles/posts there with anchored backlinks, pictures, H1 tags including your KWs. Let’s see how it works.

  5. Hey Dave,

    Another great post. I have to agree with you that it’s getting harder and harder to rank these days. I’m not sure whether that’s because more people are now doing Amazon or it has something to do with the algo changes in May/June.

    It used to be that I could do a eza and then resubmit the same article to a few other article directories, write a hub, a lens and a few profile links and get a high ranking. It’s much MUCH harder now.

    I too am loving BMR. Its really working too – I concentrating on one site at the moment and noticing some great movements in rankings for a few of my main keywords. Plus writing 150 words is much easier than having to write a 400 word article (less brain drain – or at least it seems like it anyway).

    And for a time poor marketer like me it’s a no brainer.

    t xx

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Thanks. This game is definitely getting tougher. I am just glad we have a few aged sites now to make things easier. New sites we have started really seem to be a lot harder to get ranking and the Google dance seems much bigger than it was a year ago.

    The 150 words really do make life so much easier, and they really do work well don’t they. Definitely a keeper.

    Maybe we need to tell everyone NOT to do Amazon, it is getting a little crowded πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Ben Reply:

    @Dave, Isn’t harder better? If you don’t see it through and put in the work you don’t rank. This leaves more for the ones who do – no?

    BTW, whenever I submit an article to BMR it tells me I have X number of spelling mistakes. X seems to be a random number mostly and almost never related to the actual spelling mistakes in the article. I am the only one who gets this?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    It really depends. Sometimes, and I have done it, you are better of going for lots of posts with all the longtails. They are easier to rank and the traffic adds up. If you only went for the main tough term you could take an age to rank and miss out on the cash. Really does depend on the niche and the number of keywords people really use.

    Sometimes going for the 50 buying keywords I wrote about in a post a while ago is best, sometimes not.

    In BMR I get the spelling thing, usually just for words it does not recognize, then I just press cancel and it goes to wait to be published.

  6. You are awesome mate…wtf are you reading my mind, I just post something the other night at BenK forum…yeah.

    So spinning the shed load is doing me in to…as you know i dont backlink πŸ˜‰

    You right…start doing it!

    Quick question, do you rank for 1 keyword first then once its top 10 go for another?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Do you mean for each piece of content? If so then I go for the main term, rank that then add in all the longtails I see in my stats as I go and then rank them too. But I don’t dilute my anchors much until I rank for the main term first.

  7. I’m the opposite, I would rather build backlinks than actually work on my site. I guess its because I feel like my actual site needs to be good content and the backlink content can be mediocre.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Too true. Backlinks definitely don’t need to be of such a high quality and you can rattle them off faster.

  8. You got someone on Fiverr to write and spin you an article?? Going to have to give it a try.

    This year is my first Christmas selling aff products – the last two years I’ve been doing adsense only – so I’m pretty excited.

    Re: backlink building and hubs, they can rank quickly but be very careful about using profile links (especially from a certain well known software). As a test I was ranking a high quality hub (2000+ words of unique content) using profile links on a test account. It got to the bottom of the first page for the medium competitive term, then got removed by hubpages for spam links without warning. They didn’t ban the whole account, but I wouldn’t try it on any of my main accounts.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Me too. Last year was our first go and so far this year has been pretty promising. I just wish some of our sites would stop the jumping about.

    Forum profile links are out you are right. They will now need to go to a buffer page to send on the juice. We lost one Hub so aren’t taking any risks with them now.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, How much did you pay the fiverr guy for all that work?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    You trying to be funny?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, No.

    But yeah, I know… $5. Somebody actually does a spin and submission for you?

    Where and how did they do all those submissions? MAS?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Just look around Fiverr, not telling mine as then they won’t have time for my work πŸ˜‰ But yes they do a spin and a submit. I am not sure if it is with MAS or not but man it saves time. I hate spinning.

  9. Anyone having problems with BMR? I just submitted 5 articles and when I went back to the main post page they weren’t there! Seemed to be working normally…talk about a waste of time. No copies of my articles either πŸ™

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Lando @ Docking Bay94,

    Another day of tiling for me so haven’t used it today. That is odd though, send em an email.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lando @ Docking Bay 94 Reply:


    Apparently it was a bug in the system. The BMR guys recovered all my posts for me and I’m smelling of roses. Seems they were submitted but the Posts page wasn’t updating properly. S’all good!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Lando @ Docking Bay 94,

    Don’t those guys ever sleep. Seems whenever I submit stuff it gets posted super quick.

  10. Anyone noticed low traffic this weekend? Columbus Day effect…My traffic has been about 40% over the last two days.

    I’m not from the U.S, is this a big holiday?

  11. Another stellar post mate, seems you outdo yourself the nearer we get to xmas!

    I tripled my traffic doing your 30 day to $1000 but I did a few sites and not only the one as you recommended….maybe I ought to listen to you 100% and stick with the plan.. anyway, I tripled the traffic but not until I read this post did it really sink in that I actually need about 1000-1500 uniques a DAY to start seeing some real improvement. I know it is down to conversion rates etc etc and if you are getting targetted traffic, you don’t need to convert that many etc etc but I think you need to have tonnes of traffic in the first instance so that you can start to test and tweak.

    When I read your line about 8000 visitors a DAY LAST YEAR? How did ya manage all that manually? Must have been sickeningly hard work.

    Great great post keep it up.

    PS: I love BMR, haven’t used postrunner this last week at all, so much easier to cough up 150 words. Glad to hear your problems earlier today were sorted Lando. Nope, haven’t noticed any drop in traffic these last 2 days….


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Nice going on the improvements. The more traffic the more money.

    I got the traffic by ranking for something very popular and hard to find. I did it by submitting articles to the same 5 or 6 article directories over and over.

    Not ideal but I got a ton of through traffic plus ranked on page 1. Obviously now I use the stuff we talk about here so it is easier but you can rank just from manual article directory submissions and using the $8 forum profile package on my tools to succeed page. It just takes a lot more time and work.

    Build My Rank rocks doesn’t it.

  12. Hey dave,

    About the forum links does this mean forum links in general shouldnt be used or just when they are in a huge amount?

    I was planning to use BLP on some of my hubs very soon however will that get me banned since they use alot of forum links?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Hubpages have said they will ban Hubs if they are seen to get links using any automated process. And if the links are from forms etc where you do not actually participate.

    I would get a good backlink to a Hub from a property you own and send all the links to that to pass on the juice to the Hub. Safer that way, or take a risk.

  13. Hi Dave,

    Have you noticed any differences in 150 word articles and 300-400 word articles in terms of both improved ranking and long term indexibility? (probably not even a word)

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Long term who knows? But they are a dream for getting rankings, it is quicker than just using Postrunner as you write more and have to post to a site etc. I now use a mix of both as I don’t want all links coming from just one system but BMR seems to work very well with short articles for links and they have all been indexed without me doing a thign to them.

  14. Hey Dave,

    So you just hammer out back links with the your target keyword and don’t worry about varying it at all to avoid a penalty?

    Over the last few months, I’ve found better results by focusing more on the main keyword and not worrying as much with varying the keyword to avoid the sandbox. I haven’t really found any negative effects – just better and faster rankings.

    Is this the same experience that you have?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Exactly as you have found. I may add in odd varied terms but have seen nothing but good results just using the same keywords for backlinks. No penalties apart from the usual jump about until a post finds its true positions. Happens more to some sites than others.

  15. Dave,

    First of all thanks for all the motivation and help you have provided here. Keep up the good work. It had made a big difference in how I have started working on my sites.

    I have joined BMR about 2 weeks back and it seems there are few posts that are around 10 days old but not indexed. How much is the maximum time you have seen taken for your posts to get indexed and is there anything extra BMR team does to get them indexed.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Glad you like the site, always nice to get a fuzzy feeling comment πŸ˜‰

    I think that mine are all indexed in about 10 days or so, you will prob find that yours will be in a day or two more. They bookmark everything so that they will get indexed so I wouldn’t worry about it, they will all get found. Just keep on blasting them out and all will be cool. The ten I did in a row have already given me a jump of a few spots on page 1 since Friday so there is no doubt it works.

    Just remember that just because something does not show as indexed it does not mean that it has not been crawled and the juice is beginning to flow. Hard to get your head around but I see it with forum profile links quite often. I check and they are not indexed but the rise in the SERPS shows that they have had an effect. Just keep building and don’t sweat it is my advice.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Dave, BMR needs to tweak their indexing reporting in their control panel. Almost none of my backlinks are showing up in the pane as indexed, but when I drill down using the binoculars icon, they’re almost all indexed. on the google results screen. I haven’t told them about it because I don’t want them getting TOO popular until I’ve used the hell out of them.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I kind of wish I had kept quiet about them. When you get the likes of Lando blasting off 30 in a session then he is knocking us off the front PR page.

    But they do seem to have an effect real quick. Going to do batches of 10 for a keyword as after doing it Friday they seem to work that quickly.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lando @ Docking Bay 94 Reply:


    I wish I was blasting off 30 in a session! Nope, that took me all day in amongst going to the gym, watching a movie and chilling with my mate. I find that I can work at a better pace if I don’t work for too long. Batches of 5 for me.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Lando @ Docking Bay 94,

    Lightweight πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:


    We had an issue with our indexing checker that hadn’t checked any posts added since 10/1 or 10/2. This is fixed now, so we’ll be getting caught up on these posts this week.

    But otherwise, yes just because your posts show as either not being checked or checked but not indexed, it doesn’t mean it’s not in fact indexed. We have so many posts to check, on average each post is checked only every 3 days or so.

    Hope this helps!


    Vote -1 Vote +1Raj Reply:


    Thanks. Yes you are right…..need to keep on with backlinking without worrying to much about the indexing.

  16. From an email by Tara:

    Hi Dave,

    I fell asleep last night whilst reading the printouts of your most recent blog posts….and ended up dreaming of you and Wifey (sorry to call her that but that is the term you use!) sitting in your dark cavern (I think you mentioned that in a blog post too) and I was asking you all these questions….sad or what? Anyway, I’ve just posted some on the blog but forgot to add these:

    1) Knowing what you know about xmas traffic – what should I do? I have a few sites that I started at the start of the year, aimed at selling physical products.

    Should I quickly sort these out so they look like stores and start backlinking or concentrate on the few sites I have been concentrating on since Aug/Sep 2010 when I found your blog? Not enough time in the day and I am not sure where I should focus.

    2) My traffic did not triple – I just checked my figures, it went up about 7+ fold. I went from about 20ish visitors a day to about 150-196 a day since September 3rd – and I only did about 30 postrunners to that site. Its; the xxxxxxx site…but even though its up to about 150-196 visitors a day now, it makes sales every 10 days or so. Is this normal for this traffic level? I mean, is it at the point where we get to about 1000-1500 visitors a day, that we can start to see daily sales? (I know it depends on product, landing pages, conversion rates, price points) – but for an overall “feel”. Am I on track?

    3) You have always said the holy grail of IM is to find a product that is in demand but hard to find – I have been looking around for that but Amazon seems to sell every goddamn thing on this planet. The kind of stuff I have is the xxxxxx as that tends to be more specialist stuff – Amazon sells a few, but not a lot – again, is this the sort of stuff you mean?

    BTW, great tip about the newspaper feeds, I am off to look through those this afternoon – and about using Fiverr to do the spins and submissions, going to try that as it is affordable.

    Hope you got your tiling done πŸ™‚ and many many thanks for all your great posts.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Fame at least, am I haunting anyone else’s dreams ? πŸ˜‰

    I would say it is never too late to start, but unless you are going to put in some serious work then it may be a little late for those sites, but if they seem like they can convert well then I would go for it.

    Nice one on getting the traffic levels up, that is brilliant. Postrunner really does work well. I don’t want to be the bearer of bad news but 1 sale every 10 days for that amount of traffic is not good. I would try to super optimize the site to make it irresistible to click and see if that changes things.

    If not then it is simply not a great niche. Harsh I know but it is better to move on sometimes before you use too much time. At those levels even a 4% CTR and a 4% buying rate from the clicks should see a sale every other day or so. But, if you can improve the traffic easily then going for bulk may be the way to go. I know it is a tough call and one I have made countless times after an awful lot of work.

    By hard to find I mean anywhere but online. If only Amazon have it then great, but the Holy Grail is something that people absolutely only want or can buy online and only from a very few sources. Then traffic is not the only thing, you can get 400 people a day and make $400 in a day, I have done it now and then.

    Sorry this is not all good news, try everything you canon the site to up the clicks. I think I said about a site that I get over 100 a day to and it has never sold more than a few items all year. I finally totally changed the theme yesterday, nothing else and it made 2 sales yesterday so it is always worth trying.

    Tiling still not finished, but I will post some kick ass pics of our place once it is done.

  17. Cheers Dave – appreciate the honest reply. Will try to optimize the site and see if there are improvements otherwise move on to the next one.

    Pics of your place would be good to see!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    No probs.

    Sweet dreams. Mwaaaaaaaahh ha ha πŸ˜‰

  18. Dave, in your reply Lorecee, you mention hitting a keyword with 10 BMR posts. Is that per day? How many days? Is it one of your sites or a hub and how old is it? Are you using 150 word or 300 posts on BMR? Are you tired of my questions? πŸ™‚

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Are you tired of my replies πŸ˜‰

    I had been doing 2 or 3 a day for a week or so, then did 10 on Friday and went from bottom of page 1 to number 4 for the term. Oops, just checked, I am number 2. It is my site and it is 1 year old this month and I am brilliant and I am going to rule the world and steal all the keywords.

    Sorry, been a long day my head hurts. Did 10 postrunners this morning, followed by 10 BMR then some research (sort of) then a ton more BMR’s. I do just over 150 word posts. I am now going to drink Cava. ta ta.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Dave, I’ve had very similar results with 10 per day on the same keyword. It kind of freaks me out–almost like it’s too easy, especially since the entire rest of my IM career has been nothing but a dogfight.

    I would be more cautious on a brand new site (maybe). The sites I’m doing 10 per day on the same keyword are over 10 years old preowned domains and have all kinds of nice PR3 and 4 authority links pointing at them from wildly diverse IPs. One of them also got an 80 link BP run at the same time and it didn’t even flutter–just climbed from #8 to #4 for my main keyword and punched a competitor out of the way that I know has been xrumering his site half to death.

    Sometimes this job is fun.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    That is some serious authority if you don’t even get a little dance when you send a lot of forum links, nice. I am def going in batches of 10 for a keyword at the moment. It fries the brain but it’s cool to see it’s not just me who it works for.

  19. Dave –

    Enjoyed the review – and wanted to know, since it’s been stuck in my craw – what makes BMR different from article directory submissions?

    For example, EzineArticles accepts 250 words minimum – and you can bump your article and keep it on the front page by building backlinks to it (so it keeps appearing in a prominent place – if you wanted to do that sort of thing).

    But my main point is that it’s free, whereas BMR is $50-60 or so a month, and you get 1-2 links per submission (granted the submission is only 150 words).

    If I need to submit 1 article per backlink (or two backlinks if I write 250 words – is that right?) – what’s the difference? Not trying to be contrary, but curious.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lando @ Docking Bay 94 Reply:

    @JamestheJust on Elance,

    Just different sources of backlinks dude. I think Ezine is really good but after 50 submissions or so all linking back to the same domain, it is time to start looking at other places for backlinks. As Dave talks about in his blog, he used free directories very successfully last year.

    It is definitely worth going after all the free sources of backlinks you can before you start paying for stuff. Now a days I am reluctant NOT to use Postrunner and Build My Rank simply because I am paying for them. But some of my less developed sites could certainly do with some Hubpages, Infobarrels, Ezines and so on.

    Networks are just another source of backlinks, definitely not the only source. Of course, if Dave didn’t get us to sign up, he wouldn’t get any commission πŸ˜‰ But seriously, BMR is great if your site is ready for it.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @JamestheJust on Elance,

    Kind of what Lando said. But it is the fact that a lot of the sites have high PR. And you get a spot on the homepage for a good few days.

    But it is also the fact of getting in post links. From doing big Magic Article Submitter runs I am in no doubt that 10 BMR submissions gives a better result. Personally I think author box resources are given a lot less weight now, not that I would say not to do article submissions as they are part of a nice varied link profile.

    But it is definitely getting links from nice authority sites that is the main factor, and basically it works at the moment. In 6 months who knows?

    Vote -1 Vote +1JamestheJust on Elance Reply:

    @Dave, (and Lando)

    Thanks for answering, both of you. I do appreciate you taking the time.

  20. Dave,

    Above you mentioned how atrocious 1 sale every 10 days is with 150 visitors per day on your money site.

    In your opinion, how many sales should 100 uniques to your blog produce daily?

    You want half of your visitors to click and you want 4% to buy, is that right?

    So 50 * 0.04 = 2 sales per day?

    Is 2 sales per day healthy when you get 100 uniques on that day?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Blackthorne, If you can get half of the people to click then you are very lucky. Adsense at 4% is average. So let’s day 100 people a day. If 5% click a link that is average but not great. If 5% buy then you would get a sale every 4 days. So a sale a day on 100 visitors is very good. For Tara with 200 a day then a sale every 2 days would be low but acceptable.

    But really you want to find something where there are lots of people clicking and buying. If half your visitors click the link then you have a very good niche, but only if thy buy.

    EDIT: I want to update this after an email conversation with Blackthorne. I know I talk a lot about Amazon and I do firmly believe that they are best to go with if they have the item for sale. But don’t forget that there are other affiliate programs that pay better commission. If you can find items that Amazon do not have for sale then go with it with someone off CJ or shareasale. Often this means that everyone else will find the item hard to get so you can get very good % of sales.

    And don’t get too hung up on sites. I have wasted months and months on sites that have earned nothing. That is a lot of time lost, but it is what it is. If this game was easy then everyone would make tons of money but the fact is that most people give up because it is so hard. If you keep making sites until you find a niche that converts well and people really are interested in buying then you are one of the lucky few. It is just a matter of faith and perseverance.

    Keep building sites until you find 1 or 2 that work well then go all out on them, you will find a great niche in the end. Or just use Hubs etc to test out a ton of different things and then make a full site on it. Just don’t give up, it works, it just takes time and also luck, which is what many people will not tell you. There are no magic secrets, just better converting niches. It is all about an awful lot of work, the more that you do the more cool niches that you will find.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, Dave,

    Thanks for your replies. The free info is highly appreciated.

    It’s true that there are other affiliate programs. I’ve been looking for them. And in my niche, other programs indeed pay more than Amazon does.

    Judging by your statement that a sale a day with 100 visitors per day is actually okay, I guess I’m doing… okay!

    Looks like it will just take a tremendous amount of traffic to get a decent income.

    Still don’t understand how Ben made all that money of his so quickly though.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Don’t get me wrong, a sale a day is not great but it is average, just aim for higher converting niches. The reason why Ben made so much money is because he would have spent every waking hour making sure he had a hundred plus of those such sites.

    I prefer to keep looking for the good niche then work it very hard using just a few sites, I feel better working that way. But I do very general sites. Then I simply write about every keyword I can in a broad niche and ones that make sales I try to rank number 1 then go for all the related terms too.

    Oh yeah, in a side note.

    WONDER WHEEL!!!!!!!!!

    Am I the only one to just take a look at this.


    I found so many keywords I never even thought about. You lot have been holding out on poor ‘ole Dave πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, Well, I’m doing more than 1 sale a day with 100 uniques on average!

    And yeah I’ll make sure to check out the wonder wheel.

    Howie Schwartz once pointed it out to me. He’s a douche but he knows his shit!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, I can’t get shit from the wonder wheel.

    Blunder wheel more like it.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    For some keywords it rocks, for others there is not much there. I have found some great stuff for some niches.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Raj Reply:

    “And don’t get too hung up on sites. I have wasted months and months on sites that have earned nothing. That is a lot of time lost, but it is what it is. If this game was easy then everyone would make tons of money but the fact is that most people give up because it is so hard. If you keep making sites until you find a niche that converts well and people really are interested in buying then you are one of the lucky few. It is just a matter of faith and perseverance.”


    I think you nailed a lot of things in the above statement. One of my friends who started with me just finally told me that he had enough after working on 8 months. There was just too much uncertainty in this that is what he told me. Also as you have mentioned, that is getting really tougher to rank nowadays for terms that are any worth. He will be looking back to more secure (I guess read more certain /predictable) offline venture. I told him to hold on more but he told me that we would earn more given the effort he has done in last 8 month online in some other stuff. I did not argue as that was his point of view and may be right for him.

    I was thinking last night over this and I guess the question then is and I am sure most of us in this game has, is this all really that hard. One can argue as you are the proof that hard work and perseverance does work in the end. But lets say you are starting out and you to need make 10 sites in different niches to find out which converts well…but to get those 10 sites to decent ranking and writing all the articles is a lot of effort and time (equate to money)….

    What would you say (and I know you have mentioned in other posts) for somebody who does not have aged sites to make it decent in this affiliate business or for that matter adsense business so that he or she can give best shot.

    I guess I am just rambling….my thoughts…. in front of people who can understand what I am saying…

    Rant over….


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Personally if I wanted to make money quickly in this game I would learn how to buy very aged and active domains.

    Now that I have sites a few years old I can really see why people talk about buying aged domains. I would learn how to make sure that I what I was buying had a genuine decent page rank and had up to date active linkbuilding and I would rather spend a few hundred on that single domain than buy a load of new ones.

    Then I would write content on it about all of the niches I was interested in and see what worked the best. Then I would change the title of the site, description etc to suit the main keywords, put a sticky on the homepage and build a ton of content around the niche on that site.

    Then I would be a very happy bunny and say thank you Dave and buy me a Thai Island.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Raj Reply:

    “Then I would be a very happy bunny and say thank you Dave and buy me a Thai Island”


    I wish I could reach that position in year or 2 time frame. Dave but you will always get my many thanks!!!!

    Buying aged domains with a PR and that have active linking makes a lot of sense. Does a general name domain not related to a (future hit) niche be OK? (Given the fact – about changing the title and description like you have mentioned above)

    And yes if I make it Big you will be the first one to know…..as I see you as a mentor….


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I wouldn’t worry about domain name if it is already an authority site. You can turn it in to anything you want or keep it general and have your very own Hubpages.

    Now wouldn’t that be nice? I have one, although some pages are going well and truly through the Google dance at the moment, same as it always seems to for big stuff.

  21. Dave I’ve found Build My Rank too buggy compared to Post Runner and BS, I can’t afford to add extra time to what it should take to post. don’t know if anyone else has had that problem too.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    It is being buggy for me today. It won’t submit and add another until I save it then go back in to publish. Maybe because of the holidays no one is keeping an eye on things. I still love it though.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, There is also the option of uploading all of your posts in a CSV file.

    I’ve written a software tool that imports all my articles into a CSV file, which I then upload in a few minutes.

    And guess what… I’m willing to share it with the community. For free!

    Interested, anyone?

    It takes BMR a damn long time to process a simple CSV file. I hope they will switch to a faster server one of these days.

    Great system, lousy waiting times.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Steph Reply:


    I just tried BMR, and I was wondering what that was. What is a CSV file anyhow? Can you make one in Word?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Steph, Comma Separated Values.

    A CSV file is a flat text file that you can open in a program such as Notepad++.

    It looks like:

    “title”,”paragraph1 herp derp, herp derp paragraph2″
    “title”,”paragraph1 herp derp, herp derp paragraph2″
    “title”,”paragraph1 herp derp, herp derp paragraph2″

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:


    Doesn’t have anything to do with the server speed (although we have a new one provisioned, just need to get everything moved over). As Billy indicates, there’s a lot of processing go on in the background when you add a post. We’d prefer to keep the garbage out on the front end. Our pricing model is built around automation. The other option is to allow everything in and charge a higher price LOL!

    BTW, if you guys are experiencing bugs adding posts today, please clear your browser cache. We added some new code this morning and you might have some of the old JS stuck in your browser cache.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Build My Rank, John,

    Thanks for the explanation.

    During CSV uploading, I ran into something that I wouldn’t call a bug, but you might think of improving this…

    I wasn’t sure what separation character to use in the CSV, so I chose tab. As it turned out, I had to use a comma.

    This was not so logical to me, because commas are used in articles. So after many minutes of screwing around, I figured out I had to stuff my article in between double quotes.

    But double quotes might also be used in articles!!!

    I use double quotes in my links, for example. So I had to turn a perfectly good link containing:

    href=”socksite” title=”men’s socks”


    a href=’socksite’ title=’men’s socks’

    But now my title parameter is screwed up and I need to replace the middle single quote with an escaped HTML code so that it will render the middle single quote correctly!

    I would’ve loved to have seen clearer instructions on how to build the CSV file on your website. You only show a screenshot of a CSV opened in OpenOffice. You’re not showing the contents of the CSV opened as a flat textfile.

    It took me an hour to figure out.

    Also, might I suggest that people can choose their own separation characters? I feel much more comfortable using TAB as my separation char.

    A tab is unlikely to be used in the article body. No double quotes need to go around either the title or the body. No HTML encoding for single quotes is necessary.

    Using TAB would avoid a big hassle if you ask me.

    Otherwise, really nice service. I sincerely hope to get results from it soon because I want’em bad!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:


    I think I remember emailing you. Yes there are many delimiter options, but by far the most common is the comma so that’s what we went with right or wrong. I’ll add a feature to our to do list to give the user the option of selecting their delimiter.

    But in regards to your issue, it’s really simple. You can still use ” in your post title/body you just need to escape them with another “.

    So your file might look like this:

    “my title”,”some text here and a link my keyword phrase

    No need to change ” to ‘ in your file. And also make sure you are not using curly quotes in your files either, those will get stripped by our parser, it might lead to errors if you surrounded your urls with curly quotes.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Build My Rank, I don’t think we’ve ever mailed, but if you ever feel like it… shoot me one!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Billy Reply:

    @Build My Rank, that was me I think – I got all worked up because commas were splitting up the post body, as I hadn’t got double quoted it.

    All working smoothly now – great system.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Build My Rank, John,

    I’m running into a couple of issues with BMR.

    I recently uploaded a big batch in a CSV and 1 post didn’t make it. I had to manually figure out which one it was.

    I didn’t receive an error and the post didn’t show up as rejected.

    So I found out which post it was and submitted it manually. I got an error back saying it’s dupe content.

    But it’s really not. I wrote all those posts in the batch manually by myself.

    A friend of mine is getting a lot of dupe errors as well lately. But we can never find the dupes on the web. So we think these are false positives.

    Your dupe checker might be a little over zealous. You may want to tune it down slightly.

    Still a great service, btw. πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:


    Well sorry that post didn’t come thru because Dave’s comment processing converted my links. Oh well, but just escape ” in your post body with another “.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Build My Rank, Thanks for the feedback.

    But what is a curly quote?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:


    Curly quotes are what you get when you copy/paste from a Microsoft product like Word.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Build My Rank,

    Well, all that was a big whoosh right over my head. But I am sure you lot understand it. Me, I just write my content and publish it in BMR πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Ben Reply:

    @Blackthorne, I’d be interested in such an app. I initially thought the import post would be useful, but quickly decided that unless I had a way to port the files into the spreadsheet, I would spend longer getting the spreadsheet ready for importing than I would just pasting the articles direct.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Ben Grab it here then:


    Simply select a bunch of text files and then generate your CSV file.

    The program assumes that your articles are flat text files. The text files’ contents have to look like this:

    – first line is the title (this goes in the first column)

    – all other lines are paragraphs (these go in the second column)

    I also have software for inserting links in your articles. You’d basically use a token such as WHITESOCKS in 50 articles and my software will then replace those 50 tokens with 50 links that you have defined in some other text file.

    But first see if you can get this working. Another friend of mine has a very easy time with it and I expect other people will feel the same way.

    This baby will save you time.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Ray Reply:

    @Ben, I can vouch for what Blackthorne says, I’m the friend who has been using the app and it can save me at least an hour uploading 25 articles this way compared than one at a time like I used to do.

    I don’t use the app for replacing tokens yet (he hasn’t offered me that yet πŸ™‚ but I have another small app that Blackthorne created that creates and names files for writing the articles – saves me loads of time……

    Vote -1 Vote +1Ben Reply:

    @Ray, Thanks Ray, Thanks Blackthorne. I’ll give both apps a go. I got the link maker from BenK’s forum. Is that the one you were referring to?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Ben, Ah, you must mean spin link builder!

    Yeah that’s a nice one too. Also by me. πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Did you see the post Yolanda did about it? http://www.paidinpassive.com/im-tools/spin-link-builder-amazingly-free-vary-backlink-anchor-text-spinning.html

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, I had no idea. That’s really great.

    Thanks for the free publicity Yolanda.

    I should really set up my own website and host my own free software there. I’m sure the site would attract a good crowd just like this blog has.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Billy Reply:


    You should look into using the CSV importer as Blackthorne mentions. You can type up posts offline, upload 20 in a go (more if you want), and if any of them fail the quality tests, it gives you a CSV file back with just the broken posts.


    It is definitely slow, but it will probably be never be fast. It looks as if they are doing quality/dupe content checks for each post, which will probably involve at least one google search per post to see if anything similar is already published; it also seems to compare it to existing posts you have made.

    On an unrelated note, one my links had a purchase rate of 30% yesterday; love that.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Billy, A purchase rate of 30%?

    What were you selling? Butt cream that makes your face look good???


  22. Hey Dave, no more dreams, slept well in fact πŸ™‚

    Interesting conversation above and something else came to mind, I mean, I know those conversion rates are not good BUT I’m showing up in the middle of page 2 for my keyword phrases and I have about 20 more that are in the 20s and 30s……………SO, isn’t the only sign of knowing whether something converts or not to hit the Top 3 positions in Google and then you get an idea of whether something is going to convert or not?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    That is a tough one, on one hand then yes, the higher that you rank the better the conversion, by far. But you should also get sales if you get the right type of traffic. If you get longtails then some should convert.

    It really is a judgement call, but keep on trying with other niches too until you find the one that people simply love to buy. It is all about the traffic AND conversions. Try to rank all the longtails for individual posts and see if it improves.

  23. Hi Dave – I’ve been reading your blog for a few weeks and you inspired me to try BMR…

    I used the 10 free links on a eight month old domain that I had not done much linkbuilding before (It only had a few Ezine articles and bookmarks pointing at it.) I pointed 5 links at one blog post, and 5 at another.

    4 of these posts are now live, and my site has moved up for its main keyword from 240 to 179. The first keyword I did is not showing up yet (it wasn’t before either). The second keyword has moved up from 326 to 80, with one live post on a PR 4 blog.

    I’m waiting to see what the final results will be by the end of this week when all the posts are live (I set them to go out at 1-3 a day, since the site has so few links). But right now I’m thinking I probably will subscribe to this service, and start using it on my more established sites.

    I also really like that the posts are so short – it takes me about 3-5 minutes to write one, which really lets me get a lot done in a short period of time.

    Anyhow, thanks for putting up such an awesome site! I hope this little case study helps out someone else as well!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    NICE. Thanks for the input, I am sure it will inspire others.

    Those are some great results and I am sure that they will get better too. I am definitely loving it and the quick posts are a dream. It is about the best system I have come across, that is for sure.

  24. Hey Dave!

    Good motivation as always for us poor fucks till we make some πŸ˜›

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Language! Where were you born? The gutter?

    As my Mother would say when she caught me being naughty.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Craig Reply:

    @Dave, Wasn’t she there at your birth? You’d think she’d remember! ;o)

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:



  25. I have been doing some BMRs this morning and the Submit function is working really fast today. BMR + 1. I like this faster pace.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:

    @Lando @ Docking Bay 94,

    We took off some validation on the front end, and will do more heavy lifting on the backend. The biggest time suck is querying for dupe content, and for people adding the same post over and over again.

    Cannot promise we won’t re-add the validation. Unfortunately not everyone in the world follows the rules and they ruin it for the rest of us.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Build My Rank, Have you thought of using hash codes to compare dupe articles?

    A hash code is basically a fingerprint of a chunk of bytes (such as an article) and people use them to speed up comparisons sometimes.

    If you generate a hash code for every article, then all you have to do is compare hash codes (handful of bytes) as opposed to whole articles (hundreds of bytes).

  26. I think I have run into a big big problem and I need some advice. I have six sites up. All of them on the same hosting account. As of October 8th I was starting to rank really well for a LOT of the keyword phrases I was after.

    But…in the last week the bottom has fallen out. On each site the traffic is way down and that is directly related to my rankings on Google. It seems as though each one of my sites has been slapped silly.

    I am now NOT ranking in the top 10 pages for stuff I was ranking on the first page for a week ago. I have NOT thrown a lot of links at these sites, in fact I was a big lazy on this part of it. I think that for some reason Google has looked at my sites, did not like them, and now I am being slapped like a ugly red headed step child. (nothing against red heads, I love them!)

    This could NOT have happened at a worse time, being the holiday season is right around the corner. What should I do? Should I wait a few more weeks and see what happens or should I somehow redo these sites and put them on different hosting accounts? I am so frustrated and perplexed.

    It really makes me wonder how strong a business can be if you have to rely on Google for your traffic and without notice your sites disappear for a LOT of good keyword phrases. The sites have not been de-indexed….but the post and the sites are just no where to be found right now.

    Any advice is appreciated.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Todd J.,

    If it is for anything Tech related then welcome to the club. We had a load of stuff doing really well, double listings for sites on page 1 and other sites there too. About a week ago and they are gone.

    One is slowly climbing back up but other sites are out of it.

    It is tough but it is part of the game.

    My absolute best advice here is to just keep on backlinking and adding content as if nothing has happened at all. I had the same thing happen last year. I was on page 1 then I was gone for almost a month.

    Just act like you are not even aware and just keep trying to rank, you should see them come back. But it is odd that all 6 sites went at the same time. Don’t do anything drastic, but if you inter-linked them or something at the same time maybe that was it?

    EDIT: The Wife just said, did you add any plugins? I put Reviewazon on 2 sites the beginning of this year and they totally disappeared. I had to take it off and do a re-inclusion request to Google, which worked for 1 site, the other is still in the dumps now.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Dave, Reviewazon has sunk many a site. I don’t think G hates the affiliate links per se, but it loads so slowly that it triggers the automatic speed penalty.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    You know I had not even thought about that being the reason. I now don’t use any plugins like that. I just worry with all of them that at some point the sites using them may all suffer a big penalty as it is easy to see that they are being used.

    Slightly paranoid maybe but I feel safer doing it manually now anyway.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    @Todd J.,
    Hi, first time commenting here, but I have been reading this site for a while. Would firstly like to thank Dave for all the useful information and just for inspiring me to keep going with my sites.

    I have needed it the last week because on Saturday all my sites, except one, disappeared.

    They were still indexed but not in the first 10,000 results. I was really upset because they mostly target Christmas stuff. At first I wondered if it was because I was using SEO Power plugin, this is how I know they were not ranked, I disabled it. Any way 2 days later they came back, they were higher in google etc, so I thought great. Traffic started to flow really well and I got really excited.

    Yesterday they disappeared again.

    Today I am back to thinking why do I bother, I really am trying to make a go of this, I am a single parent and this is my best chance of financial independence.

    Will they come back? I hope so.

    Anyway this is what I find frustrating, why is my one site still sat at number 1 while the rest have gone?
    Another site I have not back linked or added content to for some time, it still has gone.
    The other two sites I have been adding content to and back linking like mad, these I could understand doing the “google dance”. These are also the two with SEO power on, I had enabled it again, but now disabled it. They are over 2 years old but it is only in the last 4 months I have started really working on them.

    All are on the same IP.

    Sorry this is such a rambling post, but would be interested to know if there are similarities with anyone else who has had sites disappear. In the mean time I am just going to carry on adding content etc.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Hello and keep on commenting, too many bloody boys around here πŸ˜‰

    Seems we are all going through it at the moment. I think we are going to be down many thousands of dollars this month because of pages going all over the place but it is part of this business.

    Let’s see what others have to say as I am sure everyone is sick of me always giving my rambling opinions.

    But just carry on, they will be back, it just takes faith. A few days is nothing to worry about when you get back in to active linkbuilding, it really is very normal.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Suzanne, I haven’t had this experience, but I helped a woman on the KWA forums with a squeaky clean one year old site who just could not stick to the top of the SERPs for very long. Asked her to run a speed test on her site and good god it was loading in 47 seconds. At that speed, the long rumored but seldom experienced Google penalty for slow loading sites definitely kicked in. It turned out she was running something like 30 plug-ins, so she started stripping them down, got her load time to under 10 seconds (still too long IMO) and bingo, G loved her again.

    I’ve always run my WordPress sites as lean as possible. All those cool plugins are convenient and some are just fun, but the more of them you run, the slower your site loads. They’re like chrome air cleaners, fuzzy dice, and ooga horns. There are several established IMers who don’t even touch WordPress anymore cause it’s too freakin slow to load, and I’m going to go that route as soon as I learn enough HTML to build a magazine style site with it.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Good point. You don’t want more than 2 seconds for a site to load. I use the w3 cache plugin to make sites load almost instantly.

    Vote -1 Vote +1MKT Reply:

    I dont think Google penalise you for slow loading content. However in saying this, the slower your page the less time google bot will have to search your entire site. For instance google bot may give your site 60 seconds to read your entire site and if it takes 30 seconds per page it will only read 2 instead of reading 60 if they only take 1 second to load.

    By encouraging faster loader pages will assist search engines in parsing your data.

    By all means this is just my theory.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @MKT, from the mouth of Google’s Matt Cutts (change xx to tt)
    Most of what he says I take with a big grain of salt, but I think this one is for real.

    Vote -1 Vote +1JamestheJust on Elance Reply:

    What would Matt know?

    BTW – did anyone else catch the irony of Dave suggesting a plugin to solve the issue? Just sayin’.


    Will need to see if that plugin works – I’m using another cache plugin, can’t recall what it is at the moment, but haven’t had too much of an issue as far as I know.

    BTW, Lorecee – why not just use one of the free editors?


    Also thesitewizard.com has some great tutorials.

    Of course, you could use XSitePro2, but it’s ‘only’ $200 or so.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @JamestheJust on Elance,

    I realized when I said I use a plugin to stop problems because of plugins or lots of images that it sounded a bit daft. It works good though. Very fast speed after.

    I really do want to look at static sites too, it is just wordpress is sooooooooo easy.

    Vote -1 Vote +1JamestheJust on Elance Reply:


    I don’t think you sounded daft, I just thought you were trying to go for irony.

    I’m using SuperCache, seems to work. ITA: WP makes things much too easy.

    Lorecee –

    I use a MaxBlogPress clone, a free one, CBNET Ping Optimizer, and SEO Ultimate (or is it Ultimate SEO? I forget). Has more functionality than AIOSEO (I did a post about that, “SEO Ultimate Makes AIOSEO Jealous” – a free plugin and pretty astounding SEO company back of it, but it ain’t like AIOSEO doesn’t work).

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @JamestheJust on Elance, thanks for the links, will add them to my HTML list, but I seem to have some kind of weird mental block with html if it’s anything more complicated than anchoring a backlink. The price of Xsite Pro has kept me away for two years now, but I may have to finally pony up. Oh, and Dave’s right, the cache plugin is one of the three I do run, along with Maxblogpress ping optimizer and All in One SEO.

    Vote -1 Vote +1All Is Well Reply:

    @Todd J.,
    It happens to one of my site too. It vanished from Google index for 7-10 days. Later slowly it came better then before. This is very low paying and useless site because it make $2 month. Still i think it is part of Google Dance in algorithm. It happens to small sites only which has 200 0r less page indexed or like niche sites.
    I really think it is very bad because every single page and site we do lot of work and i can wonder how much work dave and ben do. I really loved this game as i am doing small progress every day.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @All Is Well,

    Maybe we need to start a “who lost a site” club. I get the feeling that everyone will have had at least one go bad for a good spell.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Theo Reply:

    @Todd J.,


    I would take Dave’s advice on this one and continue treading on.

    I had a site that was getting major traffic last year that completely tanked towards the end of October. Look at the graph:


    I just continued building links, and sure enough a week later it came back stronger than ever. Notice that there was a similar dip in January. Google tends to shuffle things around big time during the holidays.

    I have an Amazon site right now that dropped a few spots (it was near the top of the second page). I’m just gonna keep building links to see what happens.

  27. How old are the sites? What type of backlinking have you done (comments, articles, etc)? Do they all have Adsense from the same account on them? If they have Adsense on them, do they comply with TOS and do they look like “made for adsense”?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I kind of forget a lot of you guys do adsense. I hope that no one has thin adsense sites because Max is right, if they are adsense sites and look in anyway ropy then they can be gone in an instant, all of them, and that is the end of that.

  28. I have just checked a few of my sites and the only one that has plummeted overnight for the rankings I was getting, is the one that I’ve been working away on doing postrunners, BMRs, backlinks philippines runs during the last 2 months. This site is not tech-related.

    The other sites seem to be ok, maintaining rankings though I have not worked on them as much, maybe a few bmrs last week, a few postrunners two weeks ago.

    I’d take Dave’s advice and just carry on linking really slowly, its probably google just having another hissy fit……

  29. It is funny. I thought it happens to only me. I first witnessed this in May. I bought a domain, in 26 days, it was gone. Now I have 5 domains that have disappeared. 3 were targeting the Christmas period. This happens to only new domains. So my goal now is use old domains. I would never build links to the home page so that it doesn’t disappear. This is frustrating.

    Also, I don’t know if anyone has noticed, BMR is now slow in posting the articles after it has been approved or queued. I submitted 10 articles on tuesday (afternoon), today thurday(morning), 1 article has not yet been posted.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Pete Reply:


    I’m not sure I would agree that a day and a half is ‘slow” for getting 10 solid links posted. And if they are for the same domain, and you have 7-10 selected, could have posted 9 for the day and left one to carry over to the next.

    Either way you slice it having them all up in under two days is quicker than anything else I know of.

  30. Been catching up on all the posts been away from the computer for a while, haven’t tried build my rank yet will probably hold of for a while till i can see what is worth working on, every web property i own that has anything to do with adsense is still new and iv just thrown a 120 run of backlink philippines on my ecommerce sites so dont want to risk any more links to them.

    Wish i knew how to buy an domain with some age id happily put a few hundred quid into one but have no idea been messing about with domain face but it doesn’t really make sense to me, maybe my brain just aint working.

    Bit of a pointless comment really just wanted to say thanks for the posts helpful to me at least as are the comments, end of rant and free content πŸ™‚

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Over on the http://backlinksforum.com/ there was something about how to check an aged domain, just not sure where it was. But if anyone knows, I think it was written by Terry Kyle, then post the link. It showed how to properly check it for PR etc.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Dave, was it this one? (replace xx with tt)

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    No, I saw a full guide on a page or something I am sure, but who knows.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Dave, I posted the link but it went to spam.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Johric Reply:

    Here is a cool video from Terry Kyle on this http://backlinks-hydra.com/wsovideo.htm

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Cool, I saw that, that should help a few peeps. I really should look in to aged domains properly but I am trying not to get in to anything new at all if I can help it.

    Next year I am just going to build up all that I already own.

  31. This blog has become an experiment in social media. If G00G1e wants fresh content and a social buzz, I think 100+ comments per post should do the trick.

    Of course, since we are all scummy marketers, they will probably just ignore us

    Vote -1 Vote +1Seth Reply:

    @DMace, Dave, are you Griz? It really is you, isn’t it!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Busted πŸ˜‰

    I wish, he saved me from a lifetime of mistakes though. Best blog I ever read by miles.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    If it is an experiment then it fails big time. I don’t get search engine traffic. Honest. I think the subjects here are not welcome at the moment. Time will tell, and I will let you know when it happens. I don’t really know where you lot came from to be honest.

    +1 Vote -1 Vote +1JamestheJust on Elance Reply:



  32. @Tara,

    Have you all checked out Google Webmasters recently?

    It is fairly funky now…you can see
    – list of sites linking to you
    – how many pages do they link to
    – anchor text that these pages are linking to with

    Look this is a very good in terms of information for us, but if I was Google they be looking for similar patterns on your link profiles across the board of your sites and penalise sites with similar patterns, again another theory, dont trust me on this, experiment and see if this is the case.

    Though in saying this I still recommend to build links till you die πŸ˜‰ just do it until you want to die…then outsource πŸ˜‰

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    That is why I am loathe to put my sites in there. I just keep it simple with Statcounter.

    Good advice on the links though, maybe that should be the motto here?


  33. Ok, having reviewed all six sites… I for sure have a problem with three of them. It might be related to a plugin that I have on these sites…WPZonbuilder. This plugin has been GREAT for me….I think until now. This plugin is on all six sites and could be the problem. I have heard that Google does NOT like plugins like this and since all six sites are on the same hosting account maybe I am being penalized for all the sites. Just do not know.

    The two sites that have seen the biggest drop off are the two sites where I just recently changed the headers. I read somewhere once that could cause a problem but I do not understand how that could be. Anyway, I am wondering about this because the drop off in traffic is very closely tied to the time frame I redid the headers.

    All of these sites are less than five months old. One of them was doing VERY well and all the others were making sales. To have this happen approaching the holiday season is monumentally frustrating. I cannot even describe how frustrating this is.

    WP Zonbuilder is not the only way I get content on my sites, there is also content written by me and other writers, but most of the content on each site is through WP Zonbuilder and until now it has been an amazing addition.

    So with this new information what would you experienced IM’ers do? Still wait it out like nothing happened and hope the sites come back…or panic and run down the street crying like a baby. LOL.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Raj Reply:

    @Todd J.,

    As far as I know all these amazon related plugins produce duplicate content including WP Zonbuilder unless you manually change each and every page generated by it.

    I think google does not like duplicate content and it does not matter that you were adding your own unique articles if big g thought your site overall has duplicate content which can be found on many number of sites using these types of plugins.

    Yes to your second point I have experienced drop in rankings before when I changed the heading/ title of the page. It seems it is best not touch them once you have started ranking. I dont know why but hey…that is big G.

    I would keep my sites completely clean if you are going a white hat route, why risk it with adding plugins like these. If you are in to grey or black hat then it is a different story and more plugins for mashing content up the better but people in this boat know that there site can get an axe anytime but they just want a short term income and try to milk it as soon as they can.

    Again above points are based on my observations.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Todd J.,

    I was totally in love with Reviewazon when I added it. I still wrote the content, just used the images and price etc but the sites tanked.

    My money is on the plugin. It seems too unlikely they would all tank otherwise. I would add new original content and backlink it and see what happens. Or take it off a site and redo the content. But it is all conjecture. I just can’t see all sites going through the dance at the same time though.

  34. Todd –

    I doubt that a plugin of any sort is the issue, but that’s just a theory (like all SEO). I had one site where I “lost” it – seemed to be going well and then it dropped. I think I hit it with 50 links a day from a UAW blast.

    Then I had Backlinks Philippines hit it with 100 or so links. That moved it up some – but only so high. Couldn’t break the 60th place mark.

    Then I got my hot mitts on SEO PowerSuite and SEOPressor and analyzed my on-page SEO and it SUCKED.

    I have no idea if that affects your story at all, the only similarity being that I lost massive rankings after backlinking and to tell you the truth – the site stinks.

    I have 5 pages of content – much of it written by folks around the planet who did their best but “meh.”

    That was the last time I outsourced – I paid for crummy content. Anyway, it wasn’t the freelancers I hired, it was the lousy site itself. Using a cookie cutter famous AdSense theme that shall remain nameless…it’s green and ugly and effective…

    But my on-page SEO was in loserville. I made some changes, added images with keywords in the Alt tags, added videos, and gained about 60 spots in the SERPs. I haven’t backlinked it since and it’s currently at #30, #15, #18 and 2 other pages are still not in the top 200.

    Those two pages are so related to the other pages that it’s really not funny – the content is weak and so is the SEO on those pages.

  35. Well a bit of good news in the last eight hours or so….all of my sites are starting to rank again for the keywords I was after EXCEPT for my best site…it has literally dropped off the planet for keywords that I was on page one for. In a number of those cases I was double indented on page one. Gosh, so frustrating.

    I just do not know what to think…it began last week.

    As far as WP Zonbuilder….the sites that are now back and ranking again have that plugin on them. What I really liked about WP Zonbuilder, and it really surprised me, was that the content that it put up would eventually rank really really well. I would check my stats and look for keyword phrases to go after and be sorta shocked at how much traffic I was getting from certain phrases I had not been going after.

    I would then type those keyword phrases into Google and low and behold…there was the automatic post that Zonbuilder had put up. This happened hundreds of times. It also has happened many times on my other sites.

    I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have put a lot of time into this site and do not want to throw it away so I guess I will wait it out and hope things turn around. I will say this…I have learned my lesson (although I still do not know what caused this). I am going to put up sites with much more original content and get them on different hosting.

    I can honestly now see how Google can literally wipe you out within a few days if you do something they do not like. I just have to find out what they did not like about my sites, especially the best site.

    The header issue is very interesting to me because it corresponds within two days of the change of the header and the drop in rankings. I still find it hard to believe that caused the problem. Right now I will just do as Dave says and continue to build links and hope for the best.

    The best thing I can suggest to all of you is to be diversified…putting a lot of eggs in one basket (the Big G’s basket) is not the best thing to do. Get different hosting, put up sites with plenty of original content, and then get a lot of different sources of back links. If that gets ya in trouble then Google can XXXX itself.

    Vote -1 Vote +1MKT Reply:

    @Todd J.,

    Keep working at it πŸ˜‰

    What I would do try to find out what may be causing, make a change and do a resubmit with Google and see it changes anything. Keep changing it until you figure out the issue.

    Don’t let the G dance upset you. Repeat and Rinse until you back in, and rework at it. I know this can be so frustrating but when your sites start making 1K-3K a month it is so fun to see XXX a day when you wake up.

    If you want to spread your risk then this what I am currently doing

    1. Building a series of authority sites and allowed organic growth. Allow the way nature intended it to be ;). Building loads of awesome content and information and website. This is the long term 10 year sites.

    2. Other sites that will allow me to experiment with outsourcing, link systems and other stuff.
    – use these to follow the crowd ;). Sometimes following the crowd is not a good thing, as we seen repeated over and over with G updates. I am sure Postrunner and BMR will have its days as it is not too hard to dissect their profiles.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Todd J.,

    Sounds promising. let’s see what happens over the next few weeks. It is entirely normal for sites to jump about and no one should panic, it is just odd that all 6 of yours did.

    The advice about different hosting and lots of varied backlinks is spot on, at least spread the risk out if you possibly can.

    Now I just need my sites to come back, it has been weeks, but I know they will in the end, just a matter of carrying on like normal.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    @Todd J.,
    I have found the same, one site still at no.1 other site back at no. 2, it was no.1. Other two sites nowhere to be found. These are the two I had been doing a lot of work on. The content was good, and the articles I did for them are ranking, on page two. Will have to wait and see.

    Have installed W3 plugin on those two sites and got rid of anything I don’t need, plugin wise.
    Funny thing is that the site that hasn’t moved is slower loading than the others.


  36. One thing that I have found strange is that even though my sites are not ranked in google, any new posts I make on them are indexed with in minutes. I know that isn’t same as google ranking them etc. But if they do not like my site that much why do they get indexed so fast?
    I am confused to say the least.


    Vote -1 Vote +1JamestheJust on Elance Reply:


    That sounds an awful lot like the competition is steep. What do you use to check that?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    @JamestheJust on Elance,
    Competition is not that steep, before my site disappeared I was on page one for a lot of keywords. Funny thing is that the two posts I did last night are nowhere to be seen in the main google Serps, but they are both number one in the blog search results, if you click on that option.
    I have done no backlinking or anything, it was very late last night when I finished them.
    Other thing that made me smile is that for the keywords that have disappeared if you look at the blog results they are mostly all the article backlinks that I have been making.
    Just a shame no one uses these searches.
    So I was just wondering if the sites that are disappearing are wordpress blogs or have others had static sites disappear from google?


    Vote -1 Vote +1All Is Well Reply:

    @Suzanne, It is software, What you are telling…they like it or not. It takes max two days to index any website…if it is not blogspot.
    1) Just add 5 pages, comments on big blogs and give some powerful link and ping using pingler and pingoat.
    thats it. you will be indexed.

    Don’t think some one is looking and telling how good is your websites. It is Google job – to find new, better and relative content for searches.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    @All Is Well,
    I understand what you are saying but when I put the URL into google search it finds it although I only published it a couple of minutes before.
    I have some articles on directories that were approved last week that if I do the same thing for they are still not found.
    I assume that this means that google has found the content I posted, and as I have said above the posts are now top of the blog search, found on left hand side of results page.
    I understand that just because google knows the post is there it does not mean it has figured out where it should go in SERP results.
    Just thinking aloud really to see if anyone sees anything similar.
    Hope you don’t mind.


  37. I have 2 Amazon site in particular that are my most productive. One is 6 months old and has been stable since I built it with the home page EMD keyword being in the top 5 in G and any post ranking nicely. I have around 30 posts on that site and most of them were on page 2 at the worst, and over 20 of them on page 1. That site started jumping around 2 weeks ago and now the main keyword is at #15 and the rest of the posts are over #100. It came back for 3 days last week and everything was at the original rankings. Then it left again and is back to the home page being #15 and the rest over #100.

    The other site is around 4 months old and is another EMD for it’s home page keyword. After 1 month this site was #1 for its main keyword and the posts ranked on page 2, 3 & 4. Then it started jumping around, with the main keyword going to like #20 and the rest off the chart. This went on for a few months and now in the last few weeks this one has the main keyword at #1, but the post pages are all over #100. This site converts well, getting a couple of sales per day even with just the 25-30 visitors per day that main keyword brings in. So I guess I am going to just build links to that keyword and make sure it is stable for a while before I branch it out. The site will make a couple of hundred dollars this month just from 25-30 visitors per day unless it starts bouncing again, so I don’t want to do anything major to it.

    That first site was my best site until this month, making over $400 last month. It too converts well. Almost 50% of visitors click through to Amazon, and over 15% of them buy something. I want my main KW #3 back!!! for both of these sites I am just building a few links per day, less than 5, like I have been doing for several weeks. Hopefully the dance ends soon and we all make good Xmas money!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Now, I am going to give you some super secret advice to stop this happening, but first you will have to give me your keywords and your domain so I can copy them (um review them). πŸ˜‰

    That sounds like a great niche there Dude. Keep going slow and steady and they will all bounce back. It is just frustrating when it is at the time of year when most people buy.

  38. I can honestly say if not for this site what is happening with my “main” site would have driven me crazy. Honestly, I am a type A personality and this is so incredibly frustrating for me.

    The problem with my sites happened two days after I went on vacation (to the Philippines, my favorite place in the world) and it has sorta ruined my vacation. Yes I know, I should stop being a baby but I guess it is the frustration of not knowing “WHY” this has happened. If I knew why I could try to fix it…but not knowing is just terribly frustrating.

    These sites, especially the one that looked like it would fairly easily bring me a couple of grand a month, are my meal ticket to living in the Philippines. I really thought I was in the position to be able to move here by June..this has really shook me up. Guess I just need to stay positive and keep doing as you all say.

    I know Google has slapped me around because my rankings just did not slip a bit….they literally vanished to no mans land.

    Anyway, this site of Dave’s has kept me as positive as possible and given me a place to vent. Much appreciated.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    @Todd J.,
    Know what you mean. My sites are so geared towards the Christmas market that I am wondering if I am better to just keep them ticking over and do more with my site that hasn’t moved. It is more of a fitness one, something that will be hot after all those new year resolutions.
    On the other hand if they come back strong I will kick myself for not going all out on them.

    Decisions, decisions.

    Anyone got a crystal ball?


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Todd J.,

    Keep on backlinking Dude. We just lost a double listing and a single from page 1 after so much work it is not even funny. Now we are backlinking every day and 1 has slowly come back on page 5 then page 3. But it is getting no longtails which is frustrating but have faith, act like normal and all will be well in the end.

    And follow the dream Todd, better to be poor in a country you love then rich in one you don’t. We lived well below the poverty line here in Spain for a long time but were still in a happy place. Sunshine and clear skies make the world of difference to mental attitude. If we had been that poor in the UK I think I would have been suicidal.

  39. Wow!!!! I went eight whole fucking days without making one goddamn sale despite sending a couple of dozen people to Amazon.

    The first week of the month I made 18 sales with the same amount of traffic. And now 0.

    What’s wrong with this world? Are people only buying at the start of the month?

    Impossibilities like this piss me off. And now I’ve got to somehow find the motivation to keep going.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    You WILL be in the naughty corner if you keep swearing, be good.

    Maybe this should be a blog post in it’s own right but let me say a few things.

    The main thing is, and you know I am not expert, but it is ALL about the niche. The ranking of a site is the easy bit in comparison to actually finding something that converts. People really do need to realise this.

    If all it took was buying a domain, putting content on it and getting backlinks to make money then everyone who tried it would be rich.

    Excuse me a minute………………

    Ahh, five o’clock Cava time πŸ˜‰

    Where was I?


    One of my Hubs. 1000 visitors every day. Sales yesterday? 2, for the amazing profit of about ten cents. Thank god I didn’t build a niche around it and struggle for 6 months to get anywhere.

    My statcounter stats. This is for a number of projects I have done. All took weeks if not months of work in total. Each is for the day.

    146 visitor, zero profit
    89 visitors $3
    158 visitors, zero profit
    81 visits, zero profit
    691 visits, $100 profit
    40 visits, zero profit
    49 visits, zero profit
    107 visits, zero profit. It gets 100 visits every day for a whole year and has made about 5 bucks
    387 visits, $150 profit

    And on and on it goes. I have so many duds. We have sites that have disappeared that have made $5000 in a month. I have sites that go from a steady $10 a day to zero for a week. I have a site that makes $100 one day and has done over $400 the next.

    This is HARD. You have to keep going until you find a niche that is steady(ish) and then just work on that one site. Until then you keep on building and hunting.

    The ranking of a site is easy in comparison to actually finding something that simply ends up with you annoyed at your visitors because they never buy anything.

    Vote -1 Vote +1All Is Well Reply:

    @Dave, Looks like 80-20 rule works in the world. We need to hunt for the good niche.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, Go ahead and censor my posts if you want the worst swears out Dave.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, By the way….. are those averages you are posting there?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    The numbers of visits were accurate at the time, i.e 5pm yesterday, and the earnings were just rounded up. They were all earnings for the day before on various programs.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Tara Reply:


    Yeah Dave, maybe this should be a blog post in itself. I’ve been concentrating so hard on the promoting and ranking part of things and just as that was starting to show some results then other stuff happens. It was only when I read your comment above that I kinda realised that there is another angle to all of this, and one that is easy to forget, especially when you get so focussed on one particular thing (ranking, promotion, BMRs, postrunner, BP, Fiverr)….it is all about finding a niche that really takes off early on and it can take so many niches to go through before you get there. Your statcounter stats prove this.

    I can’t even begin to imagine the amount of work you must have put in to get to this point.


  40. Hey Dave, I have a question for you. You have written before about your hosting and you put each of your sites on a different IP through your reseller account. I currently have all of my sites on one $8/mo Hostgator plan, but am thinking about switching this so I can take advantage of linking and also to not have such an obvious footprint of my sites. How hard is it to switch sites over like that and also how hard is it to manage this type of setup?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I honestly don’t know. I came late to the reseller game and just put new domains on them. But I also have 3 normal hosting accounts, or is it 2?

    Someone should know how to transfer a whole site but I have never done it. But I do know that once set up reseller is simple. You simply log in to your account and set the ip and the country that you want and install wordpress or whatever the same as with any other hosting account.

  41. Blackthorne

    Same thing happened to me except that I only made about 3 sales during the first week of this month, and last month, things had started to look up, I made 13 sales in the whole of last month. So I was expecting things to get better this month but I have gone about 10 days without a single sale in Amazon and I have about the same number of clicks…and these are the sites that still have the same rankings (OK ish) – no major dropoff.

    I was starting to wonder what was going on. I see you have the same problem so I guess it is not just me….who knows how people are thinking….maybe they’ll start buying towards the end of the month….


    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    In the first week of this month I made more than in the whole of last month.

    Then my sites disappeared from google.

    On the other hand it is hard to tell how the economy is affecting peoples buying behaviour. In the UK it feels as if everyone is holding their breath to see where all the cuts are going to hit. I wish I had started this online stuff when the economy was strong and people just spent money as if there was no tomorrow. Should be an interesting week ahead.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Tara Reply:


    You too?
    That is interesting to know and I hope it picks up for everyone. Should be an interesting month or two.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    You just have to get them clicks. e.g, this month so far I have 13742 clicks for 872 orders on Amazon, and that is with a few major keywords doing the Google dance.

    Keep on keeping on and it will build up and up.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Tara Reply:


    Lovely stats πŸ™‚

  42. Yeah that’s what I’m thinking. I’ve seen these dips with previous sites of mine as well. But those were adult entertainment and I was expecting my product site to be more stable.

    Every time I think I made it, I still have a major climb uphill to go.

    I can’t believe the economy’s been broken for 10 years already and things STILL aren’t looking up.

    F#ck this world.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Blackthorne, I’m trying to post a nested reply. It looks look all comments are now landing at the thread’s root.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Blackthorne, This one went correctly, but my reply to Tara didn’t.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    At least you are hiding your swears now! Some products simply die a death at certain times but I am surprised your niche is not rocking at the moment.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Blackthorne Reply:

    @Dave, I ain’t giving up just yet. I’ve seen the potential.

    I have yet to try and rank specific product posts really high for laser targeted traffic.

    I can also find many products in my niche that cost 3 times more than what I have on my site now.

    The battle ain’t over yet. And the season for this niche is just beginning.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Tara Reply:


    That’s the attitude to have, I know it is so disheartening, everything being so volatile and shaky. No wonder to many give up.

    Dave’s blog is a bit of therapy for us all πŸ™‚


  43. I’ve been pushed off the first page for one of my niches, because Google is now giving multiple listings to just a couple of sites. For the keyword in question, the brand website occupies #1, #2 and #3, and Amazon occupies #4, #5, #6 and #7. Four listings for Amazon! The rest of us have been pushed off page 1 because of the extra listings being given to the top two.

    Anyone else seeing this?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I am seeing doubles for Amazon but 4!!!!!

    But that should be easy to get rid of with a bit of work. Oh, for 4 listings on page 1.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Derek Reply:

    @Dave, For me, almost all products the top listings are dominated by Amazon or Zorpia or Zappos or Buy.com. It seems that sites with lots of index counts and pages are gaining traction with the G algo.

    Not sure if Dave’s “should be easy to get rid of…” is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek lol but I take it it’s still about backlinks and backlinks, oh, and more backlinks to topple Amazon?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lando @ Docking Bay 94 Reply:


    On a search that I am targeting, the brand now gets positions #1 -> #4, leaving me, #5 and #6. At least I am ahead of Amazon. They only get one spot. But yeah, the brand used to just have positions #1 through #3.

    It’s kind of good though. Once we get the top spots then hopefully these double, triple and quadruple listings will keep our competitors at bay.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Carrie Reply:


    Yep, I am noticing authority sites in the top spots now get double or even triple listings. Hoping that Google is just tweaking their algo.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Billy Reply:

    @Carrie, could be ahead of the Christmas run up? Google thinking that those in US/Europe/Australia or more in a buying mood, so they give over more SERPs to links that offer buying opps.

    Given that G’s mission is to make things easier to find/do/buy/research, this might hold some water, but really just a guess.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Lorecee Reply:

    @Carrie, If the algo tweak smacks down some of these exact match domains with only 22 backlinks, one page of content, and Adsense on an X-factor template, then I’ll be a happy camper. (Apologies to anyone pursuing this strategy.) I’ve been checking competition before going ahead with a new crop of keywords and the sight of these things springing up like weeds since Mayday has got me fuming. I thought Mayday was supposed to get rid of the crap, not elevate it.

    I’m seeing a lot of page 1s with 4 brand results and 2-3 Amazon results too, but I think they’re easy to beat with enough backlinks. I’m #4 for a brand keyword right now that used to have 4 brand results at the top; now the brand only has 2 and a crap site with an exact match .org and 20 PR0 backlinks has #3. We both pushed the #3 and #4 brand results off the front page about three months ago, so it can be done.

    I just want to beat the .org. An 80 BP blast didn’t do it, so I’m taking a deep breath before doing 80 more.

  44. Apparently it’s now policy for Google to show more than two listings for a domain. See the following:


    Apparently they’ve been rolling it out since late August. It means kerching! if you are in the top three domains and not so good if you arn’t.

    I guess I need to step up my backlinking.

    Vote -1 Vote +1JamestheJust on Elance Reply:

    Yes, and it’s NICE when you’re in the top of your listing. MWAHAHAHAHAHAA

    @Lorecee –

    I’m with you on that. May the best site win.

  45. I guess I’m a little late to the party but I’ll throw my hat into the “my website tanked” ring (whatever that means). Of the 5 developed sites I have, 4 of them have seen some major fluctuations with 2 of those being for a few months now while the older two being just recently began tanking. When I checked my stats last night, all four had just about fallen completely off getting maybe a hundred visits between them. It is extremely frustrating and I was rather depressed, but I just moved onto hubpages as that was the best performer remaining. Hopefully that doesn’t tank as well.

    While it is comforting to know that others are experiencing the same problems, I’m still trying to figure out what’s happening. From the sounds of it the big g is trying to shuffle some things around and try and determine each websites’ “true position”. It’s no secret that g hates what we do because very rarely do we add any “value” to the searchers experience; we’re merely inserting ourselves into the e-commerce food chain. And my guess is that due to schmucks like Dave (j/k) giving solid advice, there’s been a huge influx of IMers crapping up the internet. So g has a predicament when it comes to weeding out the IMers from giving props to new/young (legitimate) sites and that’s why you see some good days, some bad days and a rough estimation of a baseline in between. Unfortunately I think the answer to this is to age the site.

    Which makes me wonder, how are all of your aged sites doing? I know that Dave has a few older sites, are they still getting the dance or are they consistently climbing with a hiccup here or there?

    I’m also a little paranoid about using any webmaster/analytics tools from g. If there’s one thing that company is good at, it’s managing data and by using all of these (including adsense) they have a mountain of data to use if they so choose. Just think how the “time spent on page” or “average number of pages/visit” stat would look to them.

    As far as what to do; what can you do? The one thing we know is that links drive rankings and that’s one of the few things we can control. If you’ve already paid for PR or BMR might as well keep using them.

    This is all hypothesis and conjecture, but I figured it should be good for keeping the conversation going. It’s also to help reaffirm myself of my plan of action. This site is great for helping with the moral support side of the biz too!

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    Welcome to the club, seems that lots of sites are jumping, but maybe this is always the case. My older sites are more stable. Only 1 is having any probs and that is just for 1 post that is finally working its way back after almost a month. New sites definitely seem to be going through it more than they ever did in the past though.

    Keep on the backlinking is what I say, it just seems to make sense and the sites will eventually come out the other side. It is so frustrating though, but what can you do?

    I definitely think older sites with steady linking are best but I can’t help but send a few blasts now and then. The serps jumps are scary but they settle down strongly in the end. But I would say to always have a few slow and steady sites that you treat with kid gloves and just allow to mature and rank very slowly for some nice income that is less likely to jump about and make you feel all sad and stuff.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    I agree how frustrating this all is. Have seriously wondered why I bother this last week. It can be hard to keep going when you don’t know if your sites are ever going to come back.

    My two main sites are 2 years old. So wouldn’t call them new.

    I too have decided to move to hubs, while still updating my sites, this hopefully will give things time to settle. I am thinking of taking my sites off webmaster tools too.

    A couple of points I would like others opinions on. Firstly my impressions to clicks ratio is terrible. This is because my images show up on google, worldwide. Would this affect my sites performance?

    I too have noticed that for the keywords i was ranking in the top 10 for, these results are now full of big retailers like Amazon. Even the exact domains are slowly slipping. I am hoping that building big sites will help me compete, along with lots of backlinks.

    Dave, could you tell us, roughly, how many pages each of your sites have? I know you build your sites up and I was wondering if once a site reaches a certain size if it becomes more immune to the “google dance”?

    I understand if you do not want to share this information.

    I am thinking that now maybe a good time to plan a slightly bigger portfolio of sites, on different IP’s and try not to leave a footprint, hopefully this will make it less likely that all my sites would get affected at the same time.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    My best performers are about 100 or so posts. But I also have success with sites that are about 30 or 40, but they will continue to grow. But then I have an article directory with 2000 unique articles and it makes sod all. It doesn’t get backlinks so does not get the visitors.

    I certainly would not put all my sites in analytics or anything though, it is just a bit too easy for everything to be found. I don’t see why ranking for images is a problem, but adsense is a mystery, but for product stuff it won’t affect your rankings.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:

    Thanks Dave, I am going to start using stat counter, do you just use the free version?

    I checked my stats in google analytics today and all the traffic I am getting is through images. Problem with that is it is US traffic going to a UK site. Law of sod again.

    Just going to carry on writing posts, there is always next year I suppose, just gutted it looks as if I am going to miss the Christmas surge which is what I have been working towards these last couple of months.

    I am starting to realise even more that this is a longterm business.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Billy Reply:

    @Suzanne, I use Google Analytics quite a bit, but rely on good old web server logs for a lot more analysis. Most hosts provide some AWStats/Webalizer features, which can be good enough.

    If you have your own servers (VPSs) you can get a lot more control to get some very powerful stats.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I just use the free one, does me fine although it is not as detailed as many would like. If it is US traffic then I would stick some honking big US links to the offers if you can. Sometimes images convert well for select niches.

    Don’t fret, the sites may well jump back at any moment. Fingers crossed.

  46. Lots more posts on BMY and they are off the front page in no time now. NONE of my last batch of 10 articles have been indexed after 2 days. Not good.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Is that by their tools? I seem to get pings and then check and they are often live even if the BMR tool says no.

    I gotta say I am getting good results with them.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Build My Rank Reply:

    @Seth, we don’t even check for indexing until after 3 days. Even then we’ve never promised the world, In general 50% of posts are indexed after 3-5 days, 70-80% after 5-10 days, and 90%+ after 10-14 days. Last month we had over 99% of posts indexed, and that’s a lot of posts.

    We’re also continuing to grow our network, and as we add new sites it can take them a few days or week to catch up indexing wise.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Seth Reply:

    @Build My Rank, I’m just saying, that most of my posts used to index overnight (like 60% of them) which was great. They would also stay on the front page for a couple of days because you didn’t have as much business.

    That no longer is happening. Things have now changed from my perspective as your business has obviously exploded. I can see that from the number of posts on each of your blogs every day.

    No need to get snippy, I know you didn’t promise the world. But things have changed in the last week or so from my experience.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    But don’t you think it is still about the best out there. Apart from Backlinks Philippines I haven’t used anything else that gets such quick serps changes.

    Seth, have you tried doing 10 BMR in a go for the same keywords to the same article? On an aged site I get improved results every time I do it, and in 1 or 2 days. For me there is no doubt that backlinks work before they are in the index, and still have an effect.

  47. @Dave, My frustration with BMR right now is that I have no way of finding the posts that don’t get indexed to “help” them along myself.

    That’s what I love about Postrunner: I know where every one of my articles goes and can point links to the ones that don’t get indexed on their own. BMR was chugging along great until 10/18/2010 and from that day on hardly any of my posts have been indexed. Great before that but bad after that date.

    Not showing where they go is supposed to help the integrity of the system but that is rubbish because we can all find the blogs that our posts do get indexed to. I have seen dozens of the blogs after using the binocular thingy so why not just tell us so we can take matters into our own hands when things don’t get indexed?

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I guess all of these systems have their quirks, but they just don’t want to provide a list of all their sites so I guess having to provide details for just one article not indexed is a lot of bother.

    Still, it beats other systems for speed and unlike postrunner you don’t get people adding in a ton of their own links to your content, but it is still a good system as well.

  48. BMR is GREAT! It really is that simple. It is by FAR the easiest thing I have ever done to get backlinks. There are times when the indexing seems a bit slow but they get indexed. I am sure there are thousands upon thousands of articles they have to monitor.

    The movement in my rankings (on the sites Google hasn’t slapped me silly) are nothing short of amazing. Simply fantastic.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    Oh Yeah. It is hands down the best way to get good serps results bar none. I can’t think what else does the job so quickly.

    You practically see the climb up the search engine results as you type the little articles.

  49. I am wondering though if they are going to have to limit membership, I have no doubt they are get smacked with enormous amounts of articles and I am wondering if their sites can handle this without Google catching on, or if their system can handle this.

    The indexing is very slow right now.

  50. Hey Todd, couple of key points. 1) Our intention is to continue to grow our network as the membership increases so that no 1 blog receives on average more than 3-5 posts per day. Right now we’re meeting this goal. That being said introducing new sites into the network while good long-term, will slow down indexing rates temporarily. 2) There was a much publicized issue with Google not indexing blogs using canonical tags from the 10/18 thru 10/23. That was fixed on 10/25 as reported by Google in several public forums, so we’re having to work overtime going back to build backlinks to all of those posts to get them indexed. 3) We’ve had issues all month with 1 of our hosts with some sites being down intermittently. We just added caching to all of our sites this week in hopes this would reduce the server load, and also make it easier on the Google bots to spider thru our sites.

    Any how hope this helps address the issue somewhat. But we’re still running at 95% indexation for the month thru 10/16. So even though it may not be overnight indexing, if you are in the game for the long haul a few more days doesn’t make much difference. And like Dave has said several times, I’m not convinced that links aren’t counted by Google before the post is actually indexed.


    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:

    @Build My Rank,

    Thanks for the great reply John. I honestly love your system and waiting a few days for indexing has never been a problem for me but it is great to see how much work you are putting in to the whole system.

    I am in no doubt that even when articles are not yet in the index that the links don’t count. I have done it time and time again on BMR. I am sure you will see that quite often I do a blast of 10 articles with the same keywords linking to a single post.

    They jump up a few spots in the serps by the next day, and that is without the articles being in the index on your sites.

    You lot definitely need to sign up for the free trial if you haven’t done so yet, the results are amazing. Via My Build My Rank Link of course πŸ˜‰

  51. I have now said a number of times that I think BMR is terrific but I do have to disagree on one point…I do think the links need to be indexed before you get full weight for them. Otherwise BMR and other places like them would not make it an issue to get the links indexed. I think that is pretty obvious.

    Almost all of the traffic we would get from the links on the site to our sites would be considered junk traffic….the only reason we are getting links is to move up in the SERPS and I am pretty confident they need to be indexed to get the full value…afterall, it is the internet and why would ANY link matter to Google if they had not even indexed it? A link from a page that is not indexed cannot be found it their search engines so why would it add any weight.

    I do not mind it taking awhile for links to be indexed…but after a week or two I think with what BMR says they can do that most of them should be indexed.

    And for all of you that have NOT used BMR….use it. It is a great system.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    I am not saying that you get the full weight of a link if it has not shown up in the Google index. All I am saying is that even before they are in the index they can still have an effect, I am sure of this as I have seen the effects.

    But obviously we want the links in the index and counting properly, I just thought it was interesting is all. Or maybe that is just me πŸ˜‰

    +1 Vote -1 Vote +1Breakaway Reply:


    The links only counting if they are indexed is an odd topic… And I have come to the conclusion that non-indexed links count (though I know no way to determine how much)

    Google had two main and different processes going for running a search engine

    1) Which articles to show in their index (up to 1000 per keyword)
    2) what rank those indexed articles show up as for each keyword (mainly determined by links)

    Just because they choose not to include an article in their index doesn’t mean that they don’t count the links on the page… I know it takes time to get this concept (cuz it took me a while too) but they are really two different things. Just because something is common SEO knowledge does t make it truthful.

    This isn’t a knock on BMR but their focus on getting links indexed is a marketing gimmick… While it is nice to get an article with a link on it indexed as it has more chances of ranking itself and getting natural links, it really isn’t necessary… But because many people in this field believe indexed links are important then it puts BMR above the competition in people’s eyes when comparing similar sites…

    I checked 100 post runner links to a site and 24% were not indexed… I onlywired those 24 and I saw a jump in the rankings for that site (hadn’t built a link in a month to it)… Only one of those 24 became indexed yet I saw an immediate jump that really couldn’t be attributed to any other factors…

    I would really encourage you to test this yourself and see… Don’t just believe it because it is what you have been told.

  52. Well I do not agree and I guess unless scientific proof can be shown we will not know for sure…or unless we figure out the present algo that Google uses. I have spoken to many very smart SEO people around and some of them think the links have more power if the page they are on are indexed and some of them say they don’t think it matters and some of the think it does matter but only a little.

    As for my testing at this point I think it does matter if the page the link on is indexed. I think it at least matters in the fact that you get the full weight of the link if the link is on an indexed page.

    Knowing what Google likes and dislikes is so strange at times. I have a site that was ranked very high for a number of keywords two days ago…in a 90 minute time period that site was GONE from the top 15 pages for EVERY keyword I was ranking high for. According to the rank tracker feature on Market Samurai I am now on page 47 for the keyword phrase I was fourth on the first page of Google about two days ago!! This is NOT the Google DANCE. This is a slap my site silly deal. What caused it? I have no idea.

    To go from the 5th spot to the 463 spot in less than 90 minutes is rather alarming, LOL. Only Google knows what caused this.

    I am going to keep saying this over and over….do NOT rely on Google for everything. Do not rely on one niche or one site…you have to diversify.

    By the way, Market Samurai is a FANTASTIC program.

    Vote -1 Vote +1Suzanne Reply:


    I think this is what worries me a little.

    We have all got used to g dance but I have never heard so many people getting hit at the same time. Some one on backlinksforum had 100 sites disappear, that can’t just be coincidence. I have tried looking for a common denominator, but with my sites there isn’t one. Or not one that I can see.

    I wonder what is going on with g itself. For one keyword phrase that I was doing well for, in the UK, the top ten are pretty much US sites. Amazon.com is number 3 Amazon.co.uk is on the second page. The rest are hubs, squids etc, which normally I struggle to rank for g.co.uk, but these sites are not even optimised for the UK market, they all point to Amazon.com.

    Just checked for another, more competitive keyword, more of the same. Seven out of the top ten results point to Amazon.com or sites that link to it, again squids and hubs. It was not like this a couple of weeks ago.

    Vote -1 Vote +1stefan Reply:


    I built quite a few squidoo lenses last year with zero results, so I moved on (now I am building sites for the german market). Also, Squidoo was dead then, right?

    Few weeks ago I checked my Squidoo stats and to my surprise those lenses (not all of them, about 3/4) came back in september this year, and they keep on moving up the serps for their keywords, already making sales on ebay & amazon. I didn’t touch these pages for 1 year, they have very little content written by a non-english writer (me) and 5 backlinks max.

    It really is amazing.

  53. Is all the spinning and such really helping one rank long term?

    It may sound blunt for me to say it, but 400 words is not a lot to write. If you know your field, you can sit down and write something about it on the fly and produce over 400 words within 10 minutes or so. I have done this myself, mostly just posting on forums, but some articles too. The more you do it the quicker and better you get πŸ™‚

    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave Reply:


    400 words is not a lot to write, I write thousands and thousands every day. But the reality is that turning 400 in to 40,000 after a spin has its temptations.

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